hi and welcome to the ministry network
podcast
i'm your host james baird today we're
continuing our conversation
with dr david murray ministry network
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[Music]
now let's talk with dr murray
i'm wondering if you can help give us a
theology of burnout
in a sense of you know you've laid that
foundation you're exercising you're
eating well
you're sleeping well and you have that
space to start questioning the bad
theology that led you here
what should be some of the false
theology that you start attacking first
so i've sometimes spoken of the flames
of
falsehood behind burnout so it like
what's causing this burning out there
are some flames
so flames like i am indispensable
you know the church can't manage without
me yeah god is sovereign but
he needs all the help i can get i am
indestructible
and that's false theology god's given us
the gifts of daily sleep food fellowship
when we say no don't need it we're
basically saying i'm not a creature
i'm a disembodied being i'm more a
machine than a human being
i think there's a false idea of i'm
infinite
i can neglect my body and my soul won't
suffer i can weaken my
body my mind and conscience and will
won't suffer
and i think the whole idolatry aspect
that comes into it
i think bernard tends to eventually
shine a night a
spotlight on our idols ministry success
promotion my online persona
things like that and there's only if
these are the
some of the flames of falsehood i think
also you'd want to talk about a false
idea of god god's a slave driver
god is never satisfied in our service
a god who doesn't delight in our
presence and
our resting in him just judging
demanding condemning
so you have to douse these flames with
the water of life
if you're to recover so you start with
things like god is my heavenly father
and really embracing that you know he he
knows my needs he cares for me more than
the sparrows
i must trust him when he says i give you
sleep i give you food i give you health
i give you friends you know
i think also god is good he's not this
slave driver he's
not this brutal judge who's never
satisfied who's just
flogging us to death no he is good and
he delights just in us
resting in him i think also god is our
protector
you know sometimes pastors think they've
got to protect the church you know
they've got to be the guard and then we
do
but is it psalm 127 says it's vain for
you
to rise up early and go to bed late
god gives his beloved sleep except the
lord
keep the city the watchmen watch in vain
and just to really
take that in a very practical way i
often think
you know our sleep pattern tells us a
lot of our theology
and if we look at our sleep does it
really communicate does it preach the
sermon that
that god is good god is my heavenly
father
god is my protector god is strong
or is it saying something about my own
indestructibility and so on so
i think always ask what is the flame of
falsehood
that's causing the flame the burning and
then okay what's the water of life
what gospel truth can i find that will
help to douse that
internally which will then refresh us
outwardly as well so my next question
i'm asking for the you know the
proverbial friend
i know i have the hardest time saying no
i struggle with people pleasing treating
others as my god instead of
the lord as my god and that puts me in
tough positions all the time
but there's a godly way of saying no to
commitments
can you help walk us through that how to
start
learning the discipline of saying no in
the right way
yep you're right it's hard i mean some
people find it easy
most people find it hard i think those
who find it easy don't get burned out
so i think it's it's one of the elements
of burnout
i think you've got to first of all ask
yourself what is my
purpose in life so i think
some of us might have so many irons in
the fire so many
areas of labor and service that
it's not really clear to us to others or
even
to god as he looks down what is god's
calling
on your life yes you can do all these
things
should you do all these things and you
you won't be able to answer that until
you can really get clear
what is my calling what is god's
purpose for me and his purpose is not
for us to do everything so i think the
no
starts in that area before anyone else
enters into the picture
you have to you know put down a paper
what are all the things i'm doing
okay and which of these are things that
i should be saying no to so i think that
that's a first a clear sense of purpose
which will narrow down your areas of
labor
and then it's to practice
saying no you know the first time you do
it it's really hard
you know you can do it in a staged way
you know somebody asks you
hey would you come and speak to my youth
group
next month um no i'm sorry i can't do
that next month
i could do it next year in november
you know so you're beginning to pace
yourself you begin to space
out commitments so you're saying no but
yes
that's an easier way and it's much more
it's a much more
satisfying yes than just saying yes
because you're in control
and you're pacing yourself i think also
to recognize that no matter what it
feels like
over the long term overworked results
and
under work so saying yes
to everything actually ends up with you
doing less
now that's hard to actually believe but
all the scientific research shows that
something like a 40 to 5
45 hour week is maximum productivity now
you can do a couple of weeks at 50 to 60
plus hours and your productivity will go
up
you will produce more than a 40-hour
week but after
two to three weeks of that the curve
begins to come down
and by four weeks of working more than
four five hours a week you're actually
producing less than a 40-hour week so
you're still doing
60 hours but you're producing less than
40 hours a week
that's science okay i mean you can argue
with it you can say you're the exception
you probably aren't
and i think to try and just accept that
as a gift of god's common grace we know
that we have that knowledge
okay now what can i do with my 40 to 45
productive hours a week
and in the long run saying no to certain
things will actually result in more
yeses
and more yeses to the things that will
really matter
that's so helpful all right here's
another tough one
what advice would you give to a pastor
who's been called to a church
that has a history of pastoral burnout
hmm has he accepted the call yet
we'll say yes we'll see oh boy okay
i think i would like i would first of
all
but i can tell what your first piece of
advice would be don't say yes
no don't say yes until you've had a good
conversation
about what went wrong talk to the other
pastors who have
left and find out so it's not saying no
you know it's not saying
okay that church has had this i'm not
going there no but you need to find out
i mean it'd be silly to go into that
without discovering what is the problem
there
and it doesn't either mean you've got to
get that problem sorted before you go
but
you have to at least agree okay that was
a problem
and here's what we'll try to do going
forward
and you know act in good faith on that
so i think some real basics are
what's your expectation in terms of a
working week
again six hour week now and again of
course
funerals weddings crisis of course we've
all got to be ready to do that but over
say a year
what would be an ideal and just find out
where they're tracking there
what about a day off a week and
communicating that to the church
and would you be agreeable to that and i
mean a tall day off i mean
away from the phone away from the
internet
not contactable unless in an extreme
emergency or
via a secretary or something some kind
of gatekeeper
i think you also want to look at ratio
of
members to staff and i mean some good
stats out there now of
you know what works in churches most
churches it's something like
80 to 1. so 80 members to every
full-time
staff member that's these are healthy
churches
and so i think things like that can be
good discussion starters
and yeah i mean if you've accepted the
call
you've lost a bit of leverage so to
speak or negotiating power
i would definitely want to have that
conversation beforehand
that's helpful well dr murray can you
walk us through this is another surprise
question so you can
now this was this one isn't too bad i'm
just curious personally what are some
passages that come to mind from
scripture that have been
particularly helpful as you've worked
through or thought about burnout
i think psalm 46 is it verse 10 be still
and know that i am god that's been a
huge one in my life
and especially the connection between
stillness
and knowing god i've come to realize
there's an unbreakable connection
you can't have you know just stress
stress stress and no god
it's still still still and knowing god
so i think that that's one that's just a
fundamental foundational one
i love christ's words come unto me all
you who labor
and are heavily burdened and i will give
you
rest take my yoke upon you and learn of
me for i make a lowline heart and you
shall find
rest for your soul i think that's just
you know the heart of the gentle meek
humble jesus
he loves to give rest he loves to see
his people just
being still in his presence his yoke
is easy his burden is light
if it's not there's something wrong it's
not his yoke that we're wearing
i love the pastures where jesus himself
takes rest
where he goes to sleep where he goes out
on his own
even just versus like if you i know it
doesn't sound a lot but
you know jesus went from such and such a
place to such and such a place
to us that doesn't mean anything because
we've got cars but
in his day that probably meant a two or
three day walk
and you think of the therapeutic
value of that of just out in the fresh
air
in god's creation breathing in
pure oxygen and just
you know exercising the body we're
really missing that
in our lives and yet that was a large
part of his life
and i think just the whole gospel idea
of rest
that yes we've to labor and we've to
work enough to be zealous but if nothing
in our life communicates
rest and peace we're not whatever our
words are saying
our life is seeing something else
and i think one of the the most powerful
witnesses we could have today
is a life that communicates
peace and rest and trust
you know a lot of us are theologically
calvinist but practically arminian
and it's we say it's all god but it
looks like it's all us
and i think one of the healthiest signs
in the church
is when progress growth
is attributed not to the pastors talents
and time and efforts
but to the sovereign blessing of god
and are we living are we serving in such
a way that
that's much more likely to happen than
oz getting
the credit and stayed well i know
for our listeners who are burned out
it's been an accomplishment
to make it all the way through this
conversation because it's hard to finish
anything
i'm wondering if you can just pray for
the people in ministry who've made it
through the episode and
are just wondering how to get out of
this cycle
of death that they've created for
themselves
and just lift them yeah i will james and
i think it's important to recognize that
so stat the other day 50 of pastors
won out of their congregations because
of the covert
19 plague wow and
i think that's partly because of the
division in many congregations over how
to
respond to it i think it's also
i i had it myself i was preaching here
in this church and
what you know six seven hundred people
there
and then the next sunday five people you
know for the next months
because everyone's having to live stream
that's a massive loss for a pastor in
terms of just
human connection encouragement
responsiveness it is so hard to preach
that camera
it's just so hard and it so your
ministry is hard but you know when you
get in front of people and you you're
preaching the gospel you're seeing them
responding that's just so energizing and
a lot of pastors have lost that
they haven't had it so it's totally
understandable and i just say to them
you know don't give up
be patient this will not last forever it
will probably last for quite a few more
months but
don't give up and try and
persevere to the end find other ways of
connecting
so yeah well let me pray lord
you're the god of rest the god who loves
to rest
his people and to have them at peace
and in quiet in your presence
we ask you to to give that to those who
are burning
out or who are burned out who are
frazzled
and fatigued we pray for your peace
to reign that you would use your word
and your world
the the all the resources you've
provided
in special and common grace to restore
and renew and reset your servants
we pray also for congregations that they
would develop
sensitivity towards their pastors
needs and that they would gather around
them
in christian love and support them and
lift them up
carry them even at times especially
through these difficult times
and bring about many resurrections
all over this nation all over the world
as we see your renewing grace rebuilding
your
servants resetting them and sending them
out again
refreshed in jesus name we pray
amen dr murray thank you so much for
joining us here on ministry network
great joy for me to be with you james
may god bless you as you
try to minister to the needs of god's
servants all around the world
[Music]
join us next time as we talk with lydia
brownback
about loneliness in the meantime visit
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